John 20:28 Part B

Many will insist that Thomas is calling Jesus “the god of me” in John 20:28, and from this they will assume and add to the scripture that Jesus is Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They simply ignore the Hebraic application of the words THEOS, EL, and ELOHIM (the Greek and Hebrew words that are usually rendered as “god” or “God”) as applied to others than the Most High, Yahweh. Once one does a study in the scriptures of the Hebraic usage of these words, it becomes apparent that they can be used of others than Yahweh to denote power, strength, might, rulership, etc., rather than as a title for Supreme Being.

If Thomas was indeed calling Jesus “the god of me” in John 20:28, this would not be the rule in the scriptures, for no where else is the expression, “the god of me”, or “the god of us”, applied to Jesus. The general rule of scripture is to distinguish between Jesus and his God. * However, Thomas would certainly not be blasphemous in calling Jesus “the god of me”, but if this be the application, I would render it “the strength/ruler of me”, in accordance to the usage of EL and ELOHIM in the Hebrew scriptures when used of others than Yahweh.
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*http://rlbible.com/jesus/jesusnotyhwh.html

In the case of trinitarians, there is certainly nothing there that gives reason to think that the expression used means that Jesus is a person of his God; thus, in addition to adding to the scripture the assumption that Jesus is Yahweh, they would have to also add to that the assumption that Jesus is a person of Yahweh. However, in accepting the leading of God spirit by means of the things that God has revealed in the scriptures, the default reasoning would be to look upon the expression Thomas used in John 20:28 in light of the usage of the Hebraic tradition that would apply the word to one who is not the Most High, which tradition does not have to be added to scripture as does the trinity and oneness doctrines, for the tradition is actual scripture. Thus, for one who would view THEOS, EL and ELOHIM as applied to others than Yahweh, the default assumption would be that Thomas is not calling using THEOS in John 20:28 to designate Jesus as the Supreme Being, but rather that Thomas is designating Jesus as his mighty one, as a ruler.

More more concerning the Hebraic usage of EL, ELOHIM and THEOS:
http://rlbible.com/jesus/hebraictitles.html

Other references concerning John 20:28:
http://rlbible.com/forum/index.php?topic=260.0
http://rlbible.com/forum/index.php?topic=118.0
http://rlbible.com/jesus/john-20-28.html

In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald

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John 20:28 – The God of Thomas

Regarding John 20:28.

The general rule all through the New Testament is to distinguish between “Jesus” and his “God”. In only a very, very, few instances is THEOS actually applied to Jesus. Because of this, and due to Thomas’ use of the definite article twice in the Greek as it reads in John 20:28, some scholars have questioned whether Thomas actually meant the second phrase to be applied to Jesus. The most literal rendering of Thomas’ words to Jesus are “THE LORD [OF] ME AND THE GOD [OF] ME.” If Thomas were referring to one person, then he only needed to have used the definite article once. This is demonstrated in a few verses before John 20:28, in John 10:17:

legei autee ieesous mee mou haptou oupw gar
IS SAYING TO HER JESUS NOT OF ME BE TOUCHING, NOT YET FOR
3004 0846_6 2424 3361 1473_2 0680 0681 3768 1063
anabebeeka pros ton patera poreuou de pros
I HAVE ASCENDED TOWARD THE FATHER; BE GOING BUT TOWARD
0305 4314 3588 3962 4198 1161 4314
tous adelphous mou kai eipe autois anabainw
THE BROTHERS OF ME AND SAY TO THEM I AM ASCENDING
3588 0080 1473_2 2532 1511_7 0846_93 0305
pros ton patera mou kai patera humwn kai theon
TOWARD THE FATHER OF ME AND FATHER OF YOU AND GOD
4314 3588 3962 1473_2 2532 3962 4771_5 2532 2316
mou kai theon humwn
OF ME AND GOD OF YOU.
1473_2 2532 2316 4771_5

Notice that the Jesus only used “one” definite article, thus showing that only one person is being spoken of. Likewise, if Thomas had only been referring to one person in John 20:28, then only one definite article would have been needed.

Additionally, there is no custom of calling Jesus “my God” or “our God” anywhere in the NT. One has to look to later writers to find such a custom.

Nevertheless, as I have shown elsewhere, the word THEOS can apply to Jesus, even as Jesus applied the plural of THEOS to the sons of God in John 10:34,35 (See Psalm 82), without having any meaning that Jesus is his God.

http://rlbible.com/forum/index.php?topic=118.0

http://rlbible.com/jesus/john-20-28.html

http://rlbible.com/jesus/hebraictitles.html

In service of Jesus and his God,

Ronald

“I am” in John 8:58

John 8:58 “Jesus said … Before Abraham was, I AM

It is being claimed regarding John 8:58 that “I AM” used by Jesus “was the name God used for Himself when talking to Moses (Exodus 3:14) and this is why the Jews wanted Jesus dead … because He made Himself equal with God. ” The purpose is to make the claim that Jesus is a person of triune God. Actually, there is nothing here, or anywhere else in the Bible, about God existing as three separate and distinct persons. Such an idea has to be added to, and read into, what Jesus said.

Was Jesus in John 8:58 quoting from Exodus 3:14? The name in Exodus 3:14 by which Yahweh spoke of himself in its full form is usually transliterated as “EHYEH ASHER EHYEH”. Its short form, which also appears in Exodus 3:14 is simply EHYEH. Was Jesus saying in John 8:58 that his name is EHYEH? Actually, no. The expression in Greek that Jesus used is often transliterated as EGO EIMI. Did Jesus say that this was his name? No, there is no discussion concerning Jesus’ name in John 8:58 nor anywhere in the context. Rather, the discussion is concerning the age of Jesus.

Jesus expressly shows that he is not the only true God who sent him in John 17:1,3. Since there is only one true God, then Jesus, being sent by the only true God, is not the only true God. The only true God who sent Jesus is the One who identified Himself as EHYEH ASHER EHYEH in Exodus 3:14,15.

Exodus 3:14 – God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM [EHYEH ASHER EHYEH],” and he said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this: “I AM [EHYEH] has sent me to you.”

Exodus 3:15 – God said moreover to Moses, “You shall tell the children of Israel this, ‘Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.

EHYEH and YAHWEH are simply two different forms of the same name.

The only true God, by means of his Holy Spirit through the Scriptures, reveals that it is Himself, Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who sent Jesus, and who anointed Jesus, and whom Jesus worshiped and prayed to as his God. — Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.

So was Jesus claiming to be his God in John 8:58? Is there any link between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14? Only as can be seen by the way the translators and others would make such a link. Of course, Jesus did not say, as did the only true God in Exodus 3:14, that his name is EHYEH, nor was he speaking about his name at all, but rather he was talking about his existence before Abraham.

Could it be that Jesus was quoting the Greek Septuagint Version (LXX) of Exodus 3:14 when he says EGO EIMI in John 8:58? Hardly, since in the Greek Septuagint Version, the short name of EHYEH is rendered as HO OHN, not EGO EIMI. The full form is rendered as a sentence: EGO EIMI HO OHN, which means “I am the being”. Thus the Septuagint gives EGO EIMI a predicate, but the short form is simply HO OHN, “The Being”. So if Jesus quoted the LXX, he would have used HO OHN, not EGO EIMI, which, of course, in context would have made no sense at all. Further, if he were quoting the LXX from the long form EGO EIMI HO OHN, then he left the subject and verb “I am” without a predicate, which indicates further that he was not quoting the LXX.

Actually, in the Greek, a present tense can be used in a past setting to denote a continuous condition. In English such is often expressed in some form of the past tense, as in the case of John 8:58: “I was”, or “I have been”, etc. (See John 14:8,9) So, what Jesus was saying is very simple: “I have/had been existing since before Abraham was.”

For more information concerning John 8:58, and “I am” in other scriptures, go to:
http://rlbible.com/jesus/?cat=370

To obtain a copy of the book, The Atonement Between God and Man:
CLICK HERE

Oneness vs Trinity vs the Bible

Many often confuse the trinity doctrine with the oneness doctrine, which I prefer to call modalism. I have even found some trinitarians who use the arguments of modalism to promote the trinity, when actually such arguments often are not in agreement with orthodox trinitarian dogma.

That which is usually called “oneness doctrine” actually teaches that Jesus is his God and that Jesus is his Father; that is, that there is one God expressed in three modes: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This teaching claims that these three are not three persons, but that they are all one person (unlike the trinity, which claims that these three are all three distinct persons of the one God). The oneness doctrine is also referred to as modalism, although most oneness believers deny that they are “modalists”. The basic ideas related  this doctrine called “oneness“, often confused with “trinitarianism”, appears to have developed earlier than the trinity doctrine.

In reality, however, both the trinity doctrine, and the “oneness doctrine” — as that term is usually used to promote the doctrine that is named as “oneness” — are but doctrines of men. The true “oneness” doctrine taught by Jesus involved Jesus’ oneness with his God and also with his followers. — John 10:30,38; 14:20; 17:10,21,22.

Related studies:

John 10:30 – The Greek Word “Hen”

John 10:30 and the Oneness of Yahweh (Jehovah) and Jesus

Thoughts on Trinity Definitions

General Comments About the Trinity Doctrine

In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald

1 John 5:7 – Three That Bear Record

“For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth,] the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”

One scripture that is often presented to support the trinity is 1 John 5:7,8. I believe the evidence is overwhelming that the part in brackets above were never written by John, but are in interpolation. I have no doubt that John did not write the words as they appear in the King James Version and some other translations in 1 John 5:7, but these words, even as they appear in the KJV, do not say anything at all about three persons in one God, nor three aspects of God, nor three modes of God, etc. One has to add the trinitarian (or modalist) doctrine to the words and then read the doctrine into the words, even as they appear in the KJV.

Thus there is nothing at all in 1 John 5:7,8, even in the KJV, that offers any proof of the trinity, that is, three separate and distinct sentient/ominscient persons in one ominiscient being, or modalism, that is, the belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes (Father, Son, Spirit), all three modes being the one God.

The general presentation of what God has revealed through the holy spirit throughout scriptures is that the only true God sent Jesus, not that Jesus is the only true God who sent Jesus. The holy spirit reveals through the scriptures that Yahweh (Jehovah) is the only true God, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus and that Yahweh (Jehovah) is the God and Father of the Lord Jesus. Jesus has one who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. — Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.

As far as 1 John 5:7 is concerned, the word “hen” — translated “one” — is neuter, and thus its application would have to be a neuter “one”. The trinitarian phrases “treis hypostaseis en mia ousia”, (“three persons in one substance”), or “mia ousia, treis hypostaseis” (“One essence in three persons”), cannot be what is being referred to, since the Greek word “ousia” is not neuter, but feminine, thus as shown in the phrases, the Greek word “mia” is used, not “hen”.

Likewise, “theos” (three in one God) is masculine and would require the Greek word heis, as appears in 1 Corinthians 8:6 as “heis theos” (one God).

Believing that God has not left us without a testimony concerning this, we seek to compare spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment. (1 Corinthians 2:10,13) We see a similar testimony in John 17:11,21,22. Here Jesus prays for the his followers to be one with him, one with his Father, and one with each other. He uses the Greek word “hen” in each usage. Jesus certainly did not pray that they be all one being or one God, which would be nonsense, but that their unity may be one in mind, heart and will. Since the oneness for which He prayed for them was not a oneness of being or oneness of nature as the Supreme Being, the oneness between Him and the Father cannot be that of being, because Jesus in John 17:11,22 prays that the oneness for which He prayed on their behalf be patterned after the oneness that exists between the Father and himself: “That they may be one as we are.” Hence the oneness between the Father and Jesus is not one of being, nor as one God, but one of mind, heart and will. Moreover Jesus defines this oneness in verse 21 as follows: “that they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me [Yahweh was in Jesus by his holy spirit, (John 14:17,20) and I in thee [Jesus was in the Father (John 14:10,11,20) by accepting and keeping the Father as his head, i.e,, by his being and remaining in the consecrated attitude].

Regardless, there is nothing, even in the KJV, in 1 John 5:7 about the trinity doctrine, nor the modalist doctrine.

See also:

1 John 5:7 – Does This Speak of Three as One God?

1 John 5:7 – Biblical Oneness Vs. Trinity

John 10:30 – Jesus and His Father Are One

John 10:30 and the Oneness of Yahweh and Jesus

Trinity Not There

Christian love,

Ronald

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