Oneness vs Trinity vs the Bible


Many often confuse the trinity doctrine with the oneness doctrine, which I prefer to call modalism. I have even found some trinitarians who use the arguments of modalism to promote the trinity, when actually such arguments often are not in agreement with orthodox trinitarian dogma.

That which is usually called “oneness doctrine” actually teaches that Jesus is his God and that Jesus is his Father; that is, that there is one God expressed in three modes: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This teaching claims that these three are not three persons, but that they are all one person (unlike the trinity, which claims that these three are all three distinct persons of the one God). The oneness doctrine is also referred to as modalism, although most oneness believers deny that they are “modalists”. The basic ideas related  this doctrine called “oneness“, often confused with “trinitarianism”, appears to have developed earlier than the trinity doctrine.

In reality, however, both the trinity doctrine, and the “oneness doctrine” — as that term is usually used to promote the doctrine that is named as “oneness” — are but doctrines of men. The true “oneness” doctrine taught by Jesus involved Jesus’ oneness with his God and also with his followers. — John 10:30,38; 14:20; 17:10,21,22.

Related studies:

John 10:30 – The Greek Word “Hen”

John 10:30 and the Oneness of Yahweh (Jehovah) and Jesus

Thoughts on Trinity Definitions

General Comments About the Trinity Doctrine

In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald

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17 Responses to “Oneness vs Trinity vs the Bible”

  1. Marquest Burton Says:

    Greetings! in the name of the Lord Jesus who is God most High.

    I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment that the trinty is sustantiated with the Holy scriptures. For the scriptures emphatically affirms strict monotheism (one being and one person) and not modified triniatarians (one being and three persons).

    Therefore, I do pray that God opens your eyes unto the truth of the holy scriptures before ye end up in hell for eternity.

    May God bless you always! in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

    Marquest Burton

  2. reslight Says:

    To Marquest Burton

    Of course, I only believe that there is one God — one Supreme Being, and that one Supreme Being is the God and Father of Jesus. Jesus is not that Supreme Being, and no scripture presents Jesus as that one Supreme Being. Nor is there anything in the scriptures about three persons in the only true God. Any such thoughts have to be assumed, added to, and read into the scriptures. What I have presented does not at all present any assessment that the false trinity doctrine is substantiated by the scriptures, but rather just the opposite. I also believe that the only true God is one being, one person. I do not believe, nor have I presented any idea in my posts in these blogs, that of a being that consists of three persons.

    http://sonofyah.wordpress.com

  3. manuel culwell Says:

    Ronald Dey:

    That which is usually called “oneness doctrine” actually teaches that Jesus is his God and that Jesus is his Father;

    mlculwell: I am sorry Ronald, you are wrong as usual, but that is okay, i have come to expect that from you. Jesus had beginning as a real human man and son therefor he could not have been his own God but rather we as Oneness teach Jesus was given the spirit without measure(John 3:34) he was given all power in heaven and earth(Matth. 28:18) and he was made both Lord and Christ(Acts 2:36)He was made the life giving spirit(1st. Cor. 15:45) Again, that was all because his humanity had a beginning it is a far cry away from you and the JW’s denying his Lordship which he was made in the “one Lord” sense of the word.(Eph. 4:4-6)

    Ronald Dey and the JW’s:
    that is, that there is one God expressed in three modes: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This teaching claims that these three are not three persons, but that they are all one person (unlike the trinity, which claims that these three are all three distinct persons of the one God).

    mlculwell: Very true, that is; we do teach that Ronald in the sense that I Manuel Culwell am a father, son, and husband, three titles of the one and selfsame man, but I am neither my own father, son, and husband, so that is not what we teach about Jesus as father,son,and spirit, either.

    Jesus is the Father because the spirit of God the father was again given to him(Jesus) without measure(John 3:34)…. God the father is Both *Holy*(Psalm 99:9,1st peter 1:15) and Spirit,(John 4:24) thus God the father is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not an intangible breath force as you falsely teach,the holy Spirit is the father of the Human child Jesus,The holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and caused the conception(Matth.1:20)THAT WHICH IS CONCEIVED OF MARY IS OF THE HOLY GHOST, because Jesus was given the spirit without measure he was made the father. Other passages;(John 14:8-11) Philip said Lord show us the father and Jesus said have I been so long time with you and you have not known me philip? he that has seen me has seen the father. The father was in him doing the works(John 5:30)…Jesus said I will not leave you(Grk*) Orphanos fatherless because he would come to them as the other comforter he was the first comforter in the flesh and would be the other comforter paid for by his flesh so that the father could send that which he provided.(John 14:16-18)

    Ronald Dey:
    The oneness doctrine is also referred to as modalism.

    mlculwell: By trinitarains because of our use of the term mode we never refer to ourselves as “modalists” it would be the same as referring to ourselves as way-ists as we also say it is the way in which God exists we use neither term in reference to ourselves and actually shows your ignorance.

    This doctrine, often confused with trinitarianism, appears to have developed earlier than the trinity doctrine.

    In reality, however, both the trinity doctrine, and the “oneness doctrine” — as that term is usually used (modalism) — are but doctrines of men.

    mlculwell: Say what you like but our doctrine is the original apostolic doctrine and your doctrine was developed by men afterwards.

    The true “oneness” doctrine taught by Jesus involved Jesus’ oneness with his God and also with his followers. — John 10:30,38; 14:20; 17:10,21,22.

    In service of Jesus and his God,
    Ronald

    mlculwell: Ronald you shall die in your sins if you believe not that he is that One true God and that it was only his flesh that was in Oneness with God and had a God.

  4. reslight Says:

    manuel culwell

    Jesus had beginning as a real human man and son therefor he could not have been his own God but rather we as Oneness teach Jesus was given the spirit without measure(John 3:34) he was given all power in heaven and earth(Matth. 28:18) and he was made both Lord and Christ(Acts 2:36)

    I believe that Jesus had a real beginning as a real human man and son therefore could not have been his own God, but as a Bible believer, I believe Jesus was given the spirit of the only true God without measure. — John 3:34.

    I believe that before he became flesh, that Jesus had a beginning as a celestial being with the only true God. — John 1:1,2; 17:1,3,5; Colossians 1:15; 1 Corinthians 15:40.

    I believe that the only true God has given to Jesus all power in heaven and earth (excluding being the Most High who has given this authority/power to Jesus). — Matthew 28:18; 2 Corinthians 15:27.

    The scriptures show that Jesus was begotten/born/brought forth three times.

    (1) as the firstborn creature. — Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22-25.
    (2) of the holy spirit as a human. — Matthew 1:20.
    (3) from the dead when raised from the dead. — Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Colossians 1:18; Hebrews 1:5; 5:5.

    I believe that the only true God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36) The fact that the only true God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ (the Anointed One) certainly does not mean that Yahweh made Jesus into the only true God. Jesus is prophetically figured as saying: “Yahweh has anointed me [christened me, made me christ].” — Isaiah 61:1.

    More to follow, Yahweh willing.

  5. reslight Says:

    manuel culwell

    He was made the life giving spirit(1st. Cor. 15:45)

    Yes, Jesus is no longer a human being a little lower than the angels. (Hebrews 2:9) He was put to death in the flesh, and made alive in the spirit. (1 Peter 3:18) He is no longer in the “days of his flesh.” (Hebrews 5:7) He is now bodily a mighty spirit being with a celestial glory higher than the angels. — 1 Corinthians 15:40; Philippians 2:9; Colossians 2:9,10; Ephesians 1:20-23; 1 Peter 3:22.

    Is Jesus Still A Little Lower Than the Angels?

    More to follow, Yahweh willing.

  6. manuel culwell Says:

    Ronald Dey:

    I believe that Jesus had a real beginning as a real human man and son therefore could not have been his own God, but as a Bible believer, I believe Jesus was given the spirit of the only true God without measure. — John 3:34.

    mlculwell: What does being iven the spirit of the only true God without measure mean Ronald? You sir have measured the spirit there are no two ways about it. If Jesus has the the spirit without measure of the only true God then he is immeasurably the only true God, as God is spirit.

    Ronald Dey:
    I believe that before he became flesh, that Jesus had a beginning as a celestial being with the only true God. — John 1:1,2; 17:1,3,5; Colossians 1:15; 1 Corinthians 15:40.

    mlculwell: The scriptures are not teaching pre-existence in these passages John 17:5 sounds as though he pre-existed but if you read the continued context to verses 21-23 you will see that the Apostles the Disciples at that time were about to witness his glory he had with the father before and from the foundation of the world, Jesus was referencing what John also spoke of in (Revelation 13:8) as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The disciples were about to witness that that took place no literally but in the plan of God. Jesus did not exist as Romans 5:14 says (Adam) who was the figure of him that was to come. meaning Adam came before Jesus he was not back there as Michael the Archangel or anything else. 1st. Cor. 15:45 also states That the natural Adam came before Jesus. Because Jesus had a beginning and was made the spirit.

    Psalm 33:6 states: By the Word/Logos(LXX) of the LORD(Jehovah)were the heavens made and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. the day you can make the breath of God’s mouth a pre-existent person known as Michael or anyone else is the day you will have an argument from John 1:1.

    Jesus was included in creation because of the incarnation(2nd.Cor. 5:19 John 3:34, 14:10, col. 2:9) His humanity had a beginning but his deity given him did not and this(humanity coming as Romans 5;14 says is what was included in (Gen. 1:26) when God said let us make man in our image after our likeness. Adam was made in the image of God(Romans says that Image was Jesus but Jesus was not back there) his coming image in the incarnation. That is why all creation was made for him and by him but still he was not back there.

    Ronald Dey:
    I believe that the only true God has given to Jesus all power in heaven and earth (excluding being the Most High who has given this authority/power to Jesus). — Matthew 28:18; 2 Corinthians 15:27.

    mlculwell: You cannot give all power in heaven and earth and hold a little back nor could you give the Spirit without measure and hold back without measuring.

    Ronald Dey”
    The scriptures show that Jesus was begotten/born/brought forth three times.

    mlculwell:No it does not.

    (1) as the firstborn creature. — Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22-25.
    (2) of the holy spirit as a human. — Matthew 1:20.
    (3) from the dead when raised from the dead. — Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Colossians 1:18; Hebrews 1:5; 5:5.

    mlculwell: I have dealt with every issue you have raised as you have misinterpreted the scriptures to come up with these. Most certainly he was begotten from the dead. the firstborn creature has nothing to do with him being created first literally but rather he was the first planned (The real meaning of Logos) because all of creation was predicated on him because he was our coming savior.

    Ronald Dey:
    I believe that the only true God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36) The fact that the only true God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ (the Anointed One) certainly does not mean that Yahweh made Jesus into the only true God. Jesus is prophetically figured as saying: “Yahweh has anointed me [christened me, made me christ].” — Isaiah 61:1.

    mlculwell: It most certainly does mean he was made the only true God otherwise you undermine the passages that teaches he was given the spirit without measure bu measuring the spirit given and that you also undermine Math. 28:18 hwere all power was given. A rela man with no power would not be able to give anything But God Gave All of His spirit and power to his son.

    Jesus’ begettal of the spirit as a human
    Jesus and His God Forum

    More to follow, Yahweh willing.

    mlculwell: Be glad to go every round with you Ronald.

  7. Jesus and His God » Blog Archive » The Spirit Given to Jesus Without Measure - John 3:34,35 Says:

    […] One has stated: “If Jesus has the the spirit without measure of the only true God then he is immeasurably the only true God, as God is spirit.” This logic is from one who believes in some form of the “oneness” doctrine. It evidently would suggest either one of two things (1) that there was a time when Jesus was the only true God, and that thus, upon being giving unlimited spirit by his God, Jesus became his God who had given him this spirit; or, (2) that the only true God gave to Himself that which he already had, which is nonsense. […]

  8. The Logos of God « Restoration Light Bible Information Says:

    […] https://reslight.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/oneness-vs-trinity-vs-the-bible/ […]

  9. Manuel Culwell Says:

    One has stated: “If Jesus has the the spirit without measure of the only true God then he is immeasurably the only true God, as God is spirit.” This logic is from one who believes in some form of the “oneness” doctrine. It evidently would suggest either one of two things

    Mlculwell: I see absolutely zero refutation of what I have presented as I always do when I present this to “Unitarians,”JW’s,Etc. This is not some form of “Oneness doctrine”as is claimed by whomever wrote this in response to my post here it is Oneness doctrine! What I see from this post is a scoff and ignoring the argument all together if that is How you aproach scripture it is no wonder you have the view of Jesus being “a god” in john 1:1 as with all the other fallacious doctrines I believe you hold such as denying what I presented.

    Response from Ronald Day Regarding John 1:1:

    https://reslight.wordpress.com/2008/10/11/logos/

    http://www.rlbible.com/jesus/?tag=john-11

    http://notrinity.blogspot.com/2008/08/john-112-word-was-mighty.html

    (1) that there was a time when Jesus was the only true God, and that thus, upon being giving unlimited spirit by his God, Jesus became his God who had given him this spirit; or,

    mlculwell: Jesus humanity had a beginning in time he did not exist prior, I challenge anyone to say different, I am well aware of all the passages used to try and prove such from scripture. Since Jesus as the Only begotten of God had a beginning and had no power of his own, he had to be given everything he had from his God and father who existed from all eternity before he himself existed.

    (John 3:34) God giveth not the spirit by measure unto him. Anyone saying different measures the spirit.

    (Matth. 28:18) All power in heaven and in earth is given unto me. If Jesus has it all in heaven and earth nobody else can have any.

    (1st. Cor. 15:45,46)Jesus(The last man Adam) was made the Life giving Spirit. Adam came before Jesus(Romans 5:14) Adam who was the figure of him that was to come. meaning he was not back there when Adam was created. How be it that was not first which was spiritual but that which was natural(Adam)Afterward that which was spiritual(Christ)

    Jesus also said; But you know him for he dwelleth with you now(as the first comforter in the flesh as opposed to the other comforter in the spirit..John 14:17) before that Jesus said: I(Jesus) will not leave you comfortless (as fatherless orphans)I(Jesus) will come to you(As the father, the spirit or Jesus in another form John 14:18 ) I dwelleth with you (now as a fleshly man) but will be in you (as the almighty spirit of God. John 14:17) When Jesus said the father was going to send another Comforter, it was because his flesh had to be sacrificed for mankind to have that comforter given(Jesus as the spirit of God) John 7:38-39 For the Holy Ghost was not yet given for Jesus was not yet glorified. Jesus does not remain the prince as you make But the king of all Kings.

    (2) that the only true God gave to Himself that which he already had, which is nonsense. […]

    mlculwell: Most Certainly it is “nonsense” and you have set up problem that does not exist for me and my doctrine that comes from scripture. Jesus had to be given and made as the only begotten son who did no miracles of himself(John 5:30) but the father that continually dwelled in him, he did the works and miracles(John 14:10)
    I would like to see an actual refutation instead of criticism and scoffing simply because you do not agree.

  10. Manuel Culwell Says:

    The real title should be Trinity Versus JW Unitarianism versus the bible.

    Response from R. Day:

    Culwell seems to think that I am a JW. He is mistaken.

  11. Manuel Culwell Says:

    Ronald Dey
    “Regardless, the fact that the only true God has given to another His holy spirit without measure does not in any way mean that Jesus ever was, is, or that he will ever be, the only true God who has given to Jesus. The very fact is that only true God would already have his holy spirit without measure, and would not need to be given the holy spirit at all. The very fact is that since Jesus was given this holy spirit by the only true God proves that Jesus is not the only true God who gave the holy spirit to him”.

    mlculwell:
    Ronald Dey Makes a pretty sorry attempt at (John 3:34) in my estimation in two areas, One is he first measures the spirit given to the only begotten son where the passage specifically reads it was *given without measure* which is obviously measuring the spirit given, to take away in any respect is measuring the spirit given…

    Response from Ronald Day

    I have updated the post at:
    http://rlbible.com/jesus/?p=88
    in an effort to distinguish the oneness and trinitarian assumptions. I may yet update the post with more information.

    Ronald then focuses on the term *given* and attempts to make the point that God does not have to be given anything and that would be absolutely correct! It should be noted that Ronald like many Democrats try to present problems where none exist so that they come in and save the day and end up looking like the Hero, But nobody is talking about God being given anything, God already is Spirit(John 4:24) God has no need to be given anything, that is why he is God. If we being parents know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more the father to his only begotten? Jesus was a limited man who could do nothing in and of himself(John 5:30) but the father in him he doeth the works(John 14:10) It seems that Ronald is trying to fight the trinitarian doctrine of “god the son” whom he mistakenly thinks Oneness also must believe, but instead of dealing with our specific doctrine Ronald goes fighting windmills like Don Quixote. My suggestion to you Ronald is next time please do not attribute doctrines to Oneness believers that we do not ascribe. The passages that say he was given and made are as follows:

    Jesus was given All Power in both heaven and earth(Matth.28:18)

    Ronald Day’s response to the above: And it is evident that the One who has given the all in power to Jesus is excepted. — 1 Corinthians 15:27.

    Jesus was given the spirit by no measure or limit.(John 3:34)

    Ronald Day’s response to the above: This does not say that Jesus was given the power of being the Most High, his Father.

    Jesu was made the life giving spirit(1st. Cor. 15:45)

    Ronald Day’s response to the above: Yes, Jesus is now, since his resurrection, the life-giving spirit. This does not mean that Jesus has become his God and his Father.

    Now the Lord is that spirit (2nd Cor. 3:17) which Lord? Jesus was MADE both Lord and
    Christ (Acts 2:36) How was he made Lord? By the spirit dwelling in him without measure and
    is his power and possession without limits.

    Response to the above by Ronald Day: Yes, the only true God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ, and by the spirit of his God dwelling in him he has the plentitude of might to carry out what his Father has given him to do. There is nothing in any of this that means that Jesus became his Father.

  12. The Logos of God | Restoration Light - Other Sites Says:

    […] https://reslight.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/oneness-vs-trinity-vs-the-bible/ […]

  13. John 3:34,35 - The Spirit Given to Jesus Without Measure « Jesus and His God Says:

    […] One has stated: “If Jesus has the the spirit without measure of the only true God then he is immeasurably the only true God, as God is spirit.” This logic is from one who believes in some form of the “oneness” doctrine. As applied to what the scripture actually states, it would suggest that there was a time when Jesus was not the only true God, and that thus, upon being given unlimited spirit by his God, Jesus became his God who had given him this spirit. The trinitarian who would try to use this scripture to prove that Jesus is God runs into even greater difficulty, for such an application would have lead to the conclusion that the only true God gave to Himself that which he already had, which is nonsense. Additionally, if the trinitarian should argue that The Father gave this unlimited access to the human Jesus, as opposed to the alleged “God” Jesus, in an effort to try to prove the trinity, then one would be lead to conclude that the human Jesus was the God Jesus. […]

  14. Matthew 28:18 & All Power - Jesus and His God Says:

    […] as proof of both the trinity and oneness doctrines. One of the “oneness” believers states concerning this that if Jesus has “all power” then nobody else can have any. This, of course, is […]

  15. John 3:34,35 – The Spirit Given to Jesus Without Measure - Jesus and His God Says:

    […] One has stated: “If Jesus has the the spirit without measure of the only true God then he is immeasurably the only true God, as God is spirit.” The reasoning appears to be the “without measure” means infinite, which it does in that God held nothing back in his giving the holy spirit to Jesus. The logic being promoted, however, would seem to say that this means that Jesus became the only true God when Jesus received the Holy Spirit of his God. This logic is from one who believes in some form of the “oneness” doctrine. And, yet this one at the same time argues that the only true God “has no need to be given anything“, which means that Jesus, since he became the only true God, has never been given anything. The statement is made that “Jesus was a limited man who could do nothing in and of himself(John 5:30) but the father in him he doeth the works(John 14:10)”. We have no argument with this at all. The only true God is in his son and the only true God is in all of his children; this does not make either Jesus, or the sons of the Most High, into being the only true God. Nevertheless, the thought that this was given to the man Jesus who “could do nothing in and of himself” would sem to conflict with the idea that the giving of the spirit without measure means that Jesus is God Almighty. […]

  16. Matthew 28:18 & All Power « Jesus and His God Says:

    […] of the “oneness” believers states concerning this that if Jesus has “all power” then nobody else can have any. This, of course, is […]

  17. John 3:34,35 – The Spirit Given to Jesus Without Measure « Jesus and His God Says:

    […] One has stated: “If Jesus has the the spirit without measure of the only true God then he is immeasurably the only true God, as God is spirit.” The reasoning appears to be the “without measure” means infinite, which it does in that God held nothing back in his giving the holy spirit to Jesus. The logic being promoted, however, would seem to say that this means that Jesus became the only true God when Jesus received the Holy Spirit of his God. This logic is from one who believes in some form of the “oneness” doctrine. And, yet this one at the same time argues that the only true God “has no need to be given anything“, which means that Jesus, since he became the only true God, has never been given anything. The statement is made that “Jesus was a limited man who could do nothing in and of himself(John 5:30) but the father in him he doeth the works(John 14:10)”. We have no argument with this at all. The only true God is in his son and the only true God is in all of his children; this does not make either Jesus, or the sons of the Most High, into being the only true God. Nevertheless, the thought that this was given to the man Jesus who “could do nothing in and of himself” would sem to conflict with the idea that the giving of the spirit without measure means that Jesus is God Almighty. […]


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